When Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva returned to power in 2023, veteran diplomat Celso Amorim (Santos, Brazil, 82 years old) returned with him. Amorim was the foreign minister during the leftist’s previous terms, when Brazil shone like never before on the international scene. Now he shapes foreign policy as a special advisor to the president and from that position he promotes, together with the foreign minister of his country and that of Colombia, a mediation effort so that the Venezuelan government and the opposition negotiate a peaceful solution to the crisis opened by the suspicion of fraud in the July 28 elections that gave the official victory to the Chavista Nicolás Maduro. In a telephone interview from Brasilia, Amorim insists on the firm commitment to dialogue.
Ask. One month after the elections in Venezuela, the blockade seems total. What is your solution?
Answer. Look, there is no magic solution. President Lula is trying to encourage, along with others, like President [de Colombia, Gustavo] Petro, let there be a minimum of understanding. We know it is difficult, but it is the spirit of the Barbados agreement. [por el que pactaron las condiciones de las presidenciales]Now, when the parties are not even talking to each other, it is much more difficult. Our job is to continue working together with others, especially with Colombia and Mexico.
P. How do you describe the dialogue between Brazil and Colombia, with the government on the one hand and with the opposition on the other, given that they do not speak to each other?
R. I don’t know how it will evolve, but obviously we cannot recognize President Maduro’s victory without seeing the minutes, but we cannot recognize the alleged victory of the opposition either, because otherwise we are creating a very serious precedent. Even if they are copies of the official minutes. It is a real impasse. That is why we have come to the point of suggesting the possibility of new elections. The important thing is to try to keep the door open for some dialogue and understanding. It is difficult, but I think it is in everyone’s interest. We cannot return to a situation like that of Guaidó. [el opositor reconocido como presidente interino por decenas de países]which was a fiction. It is unfortunate that the EU recognised this.
P. How is the dialogue with the Maduro government now?
R. It depends on both, the government and the opposition. We are open to hearing arguments, to seeking some understanding. But I cannot decide the formula. One hypothesis is an election, like a second round. If both say they won easily, they should not be afraid. But that should be part of a package that includes respect for the loser in a broader sense, amnesty, but also the right to be politically organized and able to participate. We should even see this as an opportunity to have a little more national understanding again. Every country is different, but here, in Brazil, we also had to ally ourselves with people who do not think exactly like us. It is part of democracy, it is not interference. We are not going to impose anything.
P.Do you think the Government has respected what was agreed in Barbados?
R.I do not want to single out the Government. The understanding is between both. Venezuela must be a sovereign, independent country, with parties with different positions in which the process [electoral] be respected. We cannot lose sight of the fact that next year there will be parliamentary elections, elections for governor… Twenty years ago we had a similar crisis, when the right led a coup against President Chavez, a coup that the right-wing government of Spain recognised. The solution was to create a group of friends, both left and right, to guarantee that the recall referendum provided for in the Constitution would take place. The interval was one year. Now the calendar does not help. Imagination will be needed, but it can only be found with dialogue and the will to find a solution.
P. But a month has passed since the vote and Brazil, Colombia, the United States, the European Union…
R.Our positions are not identical.
P. I know.
R. I make that distinction because we are not saying that the other [el opositor Edmundo González Urrutia] won.
P. You do not recognise him as the winner of the elections, unlike the US, the EU and some Latin American countries.
P. It is not a detail. We, Colombia and Mexico, the three largest countries in Latin America.
P. But everyone agrees to demand the official minutes table by table to verify whether Maduro won. They have been asking for them for a month and nothing.
R. Let’s find an understanding because I don’t see it feasible to say that the other candidate won. Maybe the minutes still show [oficiales]. Let’s suppose that they don’t arrive on the date set by the Supreme Court, then what? We need to find a solution, create a kind of group of facilitators that will talk with one, then with the other, to find a solution that includes the lifting of sanctions. The European Union made a serious mistake by not suspending the sanctions; it would have been the main international observer because the Carter Center does not have sufficient resources. I found it arrogant that the EU maintained the sanctions. And it lost the conditions to act as an observer.
P. What role could former Spanish President José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero play in a possible mediation?
R. President Zapatero is a good friend of Venezuela. He knows the problems very well. He was with us at the Brazilian Embassy. [en Caracas]on two occasions during the elections. We talked a lot. I am sure that he can be of great value when there is an effective willingness to negotiate. We have to look for an opening for dialogue and he is a master of dialogue.
P. What is the next step, Brazil’s priority?
R. Talk to everyone. The idea that we need to find a mutually acceptable solution, even if it is not ideal for one or the other, must be understood.
P. Who puts up more obstacles?
R. When Lula suggested new elections, both sides rejected him. This shows that he is very impartial. Venezuela will always be the one to decide. Now, if he wants to have a good international coexistence, he will have to take into account the opinions of other countries. It is not about intervening. Brazil and Colombia are not threatening anything, they are not saying that they are going to break off relations.
P. And if Maduro takes office on January 10 and the blockade persists, will Brazil recognize a third term for Maduro?
R. Our doctrine of international law is to recognise states, not governments. It doesn’t mean you like them or not, but you have to maintain relations. Besides, January is a long way off and our hope is that we can find a mutually acceptable way, even if it may not be the final solution.
P. Meanwhile, in Venezuela, decisions are made every day. The Prosecutor’s Office accuses González Urrutia of conspiracy and has summoned him. Is that an obstacle?
P. The note from Brazil and Colombia says that we are against acts of violence and repression.
P. Are you worried about a large-scale outbreak of violence?
R. That risk always exists. That is why we believe that as long as there is a possibility of understanding, we cannot abandon that hypothesis. It is very complex. Creating the group of friends 20 years ago was not easy or obvious either. The president [Hugo] Chavez wanted it to be a group of friends of Chavez. And President Lula said no, they have to be friends of Venezuela, to build a national reconciliation respecting the differences. We must also not forget that Venezuela, which has the largest proven oil reserves in the world, is a pawn in the global geopolitical game.
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